Deena Kaye and Jim LeBrecht discuss the newest edition of "Sound and Music for the Theatre"

00:00:05: Staging

00:00:06: Sound, a podcast reflecting on theatre music sound design, sonic practices and experiences.

00:00:24: Welcome to the Podcast Staging Sounds!

00:00:26: I'm delighted for all the listeners to tune back in.

00:00:29: it's been awhile since last episode but the wait was very much worth as today we've got two particularly esteemed guests who are Dina Kaye and Jim LeBrecht.

00:00:40: The occasion or the initial prompt for this episode was that their book which is called Sound and Music For The Theatre, which would you believe it originates from nineteen ninety-two.

00:00:52: Which is thirty four years ago... ...is now in its fifth edition!

00:00:56: It's long become a touchstone and bit of Bible for anyone who dealing with sound music theatre stage.

00:01:05: It's a great excuse to have a conversation, not just about the book but also your careers and impressions or experiences of sound and theatre which are plentiful I'm sure.

00:01:16: Just introduce two very briefly.

00:01:20: this could take all day long.

00:01:22: so starting with Dina has been in business for a long time.

00:01:26: she is music and sound designer and composer and arranger With many theatres.

00:01:32: I'll just name a few.

00:01:33: The Lincoln Center, the New York Public Theatre... ...the acting company and the New-York Theatre Workshop... ...Circle Wrap, the NY Shakespeare Festival… And so on!

00:01:43: So this would go for another half an hour if i read them all.

00:01:47: But she also has taken up coaching and has privately coached many performers in particular In areas of audition preparation text music dialects and accents.

00:01:59: And today I'm sort of slightly nervous, because Dina also teaches or coaches podcasters and... ...I'm sure i'll get lots notes at the end.

00:02:12: So Jim LeBrecht is not only a sound designer & filmmaker with forty years experience.

00:02:22: He is also a disability rights activist.

00:02:25: We'll come back to that role towards the end of the podcast, I'm sure he has not.

00:02:31: so recently in two thousand and twenty premiered Netflix original documentary called Crip Camp which i can only recommend anyone to seek out watch because it's beautiful moving and actually went on to receive an Oscar nomination for Best Documentary Feature, the Peabody Award.

00:02:52: Jim has also worked extensively in theatre.

00:02:54: particularly he was a resident sound designer at The Berkley Repertory Theatre where it was about ten years and created well over one hundred sound designs.

00:03:03: so I just wanted you start sort of with a little ear opener In this sense.

00:03:07: You've already mentioned that you're based in the Bay Area And Dina your base is New York.

00:03:13: What are some of the sounds that you connect with your cities?

00:03:16: Are there favorite sound or sounds you hate about where you live?

00:03:21: Dina, do you want to start?

00:03:23: Garbage trucks echo in the canyons

00:03:26: of

00:03:26: this city.

00:03:27: And my... and of course we have construction constantly and scaffolding constantly so it's- There is a lot of industrial sound but some of my favourite sounds.

00:03:40: In the morning, believe it or not there are birds.

00:03:42: Lots and lots of birds because they're tree-lined streets all over And I actually love hearing children on their way to school in the morning.

00:03:53: Chatter chatter chatter.

00:03:54: we're an upper west side neighborhood so There's a lot some lots of uh Children and dogs.

00:04:01: that's always kind of

00:04:02: like

00:04:03: that.

00:04:03: That's always good energy.

00:04:04: just start the day with yeah Jim what other sounds you hear when your out about?

00:04:10: Well, um my wife Sarah and I live up in the Oakland Hills.

00:04:15: And uh unfortunately we have a lot of trees around us and i always kind of remark that every tree sounds a little bit different than the wind...and I mourn when trees get taken out into our neighborhood.

00:04:31: So, but I am outside listening a fair amount.

00:04:34: I have a bird feeder right outside my office window so i can hear the birds fighting over the bird seed.

00:04:42: and But in the Bay Area?

00:04:44: I think one of our sounds is you could hear The the train system to Bart's just the bay area rapid transit And so up here.

00:04:54: if they can hear that occasionally then I also hear freight trains occasionally the whistles of that.

00:05:01: Nice, yeah.

00:05:02: so we don't have a pair of bird watchers but of bird listeners amongst us which is very nice.

00:05:07: I understand there's such a melody to them.

00:05:11: How did you get into your professions?

00:05:13: At time it wasn't yet.

00:05:16: sound design and music for theatre dates back along time.

00:05:21: technology only evolved sort beginning in the nineteenth century roughly.

00:05:25: But at times when It wasn't a career, it wasn't something you studied.

00:05:31: That was recommended to by the job counselor?

00:05:35: How did get into your

00:05:37: professions?".

00:05:38: My father is kind of person that loved tape things off the radio and so we had real-to-real tape deck in house And he also got involved with couple theater productions at our local church.

00:05:55: I fell in with drama clique high school And, you know with my reel-to-reel and turntable in some records.

00:06:04: You know just sound design...and then when I went off to college i thought it was gonna be an acoustics major because I want to do sound work for The Grateful Dead!

00:06:18: That didn't wind up being a very practical profession especially since um..I was really horrible at math & physics But going down to the drama department at UC, The University of California San Diego.

00:06:34: I just happened to stumble upon a large production they were doing outdoors and i said it was interesting.

00:06:41: this is great.

00:06:42: you could be the head of sound sound operators And that's time the graduate student their thesis project with the sound design for this show.

00:06:54: and there were five different tape decks, the five different sound operators.

00:07:00: So that kind of launched me into a career theater I really loved.

00:07:07: Excellent!

00:07:08: How do you Dina?

00:07:09: Well um...I actually started playing piano when i was two And I was concertizing at eleven.

00:07:17: so music is always part my life.

00:07:19: but my brother couple years older um was in theater and high school.

00:07:26: And then I kind of followed that, and i was just telling my husband the first show i actually wrote music for as incidental music and supported sound design-was mother courage at high school!

00:07:41: It's like a burtoprag.

00:07:43: you can do this...

00:07:43: The other bright.

00:07:47: And then there was a Shakespeare festival from the university.

00:07:51: There that was a professional company and I Was kind of interning their, and Then there was this studio M. so at A very young age i was working with these theaters?

00:08:00: And I would do music but it's studio m. There was a lot Of recording.

00:08:04: in some of It was needle drop.

00:08:08: We did needle Drop In The early sixties.

00:08:11: ah I also had reel-to-reel machine that i was very dependent on and so, uh...i was kind of playing around with this.

00:08:19: nobody taught it but thats where started.

00:08:23: And then when went to college thinking about what's going be a music major my hand got destroyed in an accident.

00:08:31: gosh yeah..and can still play ,but not what is doing the probably never have been disciplined.

00:08:37: continue without but as well.

00:08:39: i found out how much i love too put music and sound with shows, I was also acting.

00:08:46: but my professors let me do anything i wanted.

00:08:50: Do you want to compose this?

00:08:53: It's really nice!

00:08:56: The first professional theatre that I was involved in atlanta also lets me do any thing I want.

00:09:02: did not cut the teeth there where I can act or compose... There is no word for what I was doing until i came to new york with my husband in the seventies and had to redo a resume, And I said well what is this other thing?

00:09:17: It's not music direction.

00:09:19: So we started to call it Music & Sound Design and I didn't really know much about how that Was as uh As a discipline.

00:09:28: but...I kind of became The Queen above off Broadway worked everywhere I could and kind of learned as life was going.

00:09:37: That's probably the best way to learn on-the-job, you know?

00:09:40: And develop it as you go along because also...I suspect that at the time no such book has been written existed No such manual or collection of experience.

00:09:53: How did you get a point to decide...?

00:09:59: Sound design & music have two.

00:10:02: There is a technical and musical aspect of actually creating things, editing playing composing.

00:10:07: That's all sort of the craft in its own right.

00:10:10: but The other thing Is how to position Things In the context Of a performance To develop A taste i would say you know to develop an aesthetics of saying This is what it needs here or no?

00:10:25: this Needs a silence Here.

00:10:27: I want to go against the sentiment of this speech.

00:10:30: How did that develop?

00:10:31: And have you developed your own aesthetics for saying, This is something I tend to do and it's something i would never do in terms on how to position sound or music?

00:10:44: There are a lot questions there!

00:10:46: Yes sorry!

00:10:48: Now they're

00:10:49: fabulous!

00:10:50: Dina Do You Want To Begin?

00:10:52: Well David you said silence.

00:10:57: when is it silence?

00:10:58: And I think Jim and I actually talk in the book about making that choice to not have sound at certain points or if there's a lot of sound, then not.

00:11:08: I mean, I could tell you many instances where...I think we actually have anecdotes on the books that talked about that.

00:11:14: but You also said the word developing a sense of taste The music or the sound ever be insinuated without purpose.

00:11:28: And also because I was an actor and like, I want this to support what i'm doing.

00:11:33: if it doesn't serve production It doesn't belong.

00:11:36: When Jim and I first met um...I came out to Berkeley Rep To work on uh An O'Neill play with him..and I had never met anyone who spoke a language about sounds and music the way I did.

00:11:55: And Jim and I, mind-melded...I think it's the first time we met!

00:12:00: Now he suggested that we write a book—I thought I'd suggest you to do so because my husband Craig thinks he is the one who suggested this.

00:12:08: but…we wrote this long distance when we were still sending floppy disks back and forth coast to coast….and then i would try get out of the bay area for work in person But nobody was writing about it.

00:12:25: There were no books,

00:12:26: I mean there is one book very early on that i had which was David Collison's stage sound yes and so i hats off to david.

00:12:38: yeah that's an excellent book actually

00:12:40: Yes And So

00:12:42: That's true!

00:12:42: I have the Book

00:12:44: You know also.

00:12:47: you know One book we certainly recommended for many years.

00:12:50: It was at the Yamaha handbook on sound reinforcement, which really explained equipment rather well.

00:13:02: But indeed Dina came out and whoever came up with the idea?

00:13:08: first we decided that we wanted to write a book plenty of books that explain what a microphone was and or an amplifier, Or how they hooked together.

00:13:25: And we have some rudimentary information out there when it comes to microphone choices for field recording.

00:13:33: but We wanted to really focus on the aesthetics in process Of doing sound design.

00:13:40: uh music for theater um...and you know starting off with some history.

00:13:46: so That has been always kind of the thrust.

00:13:49: Of this book over time, but it is really like okay?

00:13:54: It wasn't.

00:13:55: if you found the first edition...it probably wouldn't be like a covering in The Dead Sea Scrolls.

00:14:00: however there was instructions about how to edit your quarter inch reel-to-reel tape and how to label your leader as software became the basis for everything.

00:14:22: But I think that the key for Dina and I, really finding a wonderful collaboration both as her sound designer for her compositions with us writing this book was...I wanted to call it A Sense of Sound at one point and that we shared a similar aesthetic, it really kind of taking this idea sound design as seriously is all the other's designed elements.

00:14:51: And I certainly remember times early on in my career where some directors like just didn't know how to utilize being or I would explain a concept behind something, and they looked at me like i just landed from Mars.

00:15:13: They didn't get it!

00:15:14: And one director said that if he wished to know what you were capable of... ...I'd have done

00:15:22: more.

00:15:23: That's an interesting point because not only is this book for sound designers, composers & musicians but also ideally directors and actors.

00:15:33: You're quite right.

00:15:36: Some of them really speak the language of sound and music, have a good ear for it... ...and some don't quite know and kind of underuse sound And you could so often tell a story through sound or music.

00:15:53: Then just becomes this additional layer that tells everything again.

00:15:57: That's sad if we do not Integrate it as a performer almost.

00:16:03: I think you mentioned that in your book at some point, you say sound can almost be a character and also be dialogue partner rather than just sort of an atmospheric layer.

00:16:14: It could also destroy a moment

00:16:16: Yes sure

00:16:17: like in a split second.

00:16:18: so

00:16:19: Yeah Do talk about You know?

00:16:22: Almost a bit nostalgically about tape recorders reel-to-reel Machines etc.

00:16:26: do you miss that haptic quality of creating sound, or are you actually quite relieved that it's now software?

00:16:33: Because probably one of the major changes from addition to addition is basically updating technical parts and procedures which create sound design today.

00:16:46: Which is why we left all the prefixes in!

00:16:49: And at some point one editor said do you need these?

00:16:51: We said yes because they're not long but their history our evolution as gone from addition to addition, the first edition came out and within five years everything went from analog-to-digital.

00:17:06: And it was like oh!

00:17:07: That's why they wanted a second

00:17:09: edition.".

00:17:13: The technology just kept refining in advancing... In my case I was producing some things but with younger engineers who knew the technology, but I was raising a child.

00:17:27: So I said hmmm...I will still design But i'm not going to go into this studio and have that equipment.

00:17:35: And so I kind of stepped away from it started doing other things But mostly music and not as much design although I would consult on some sound design by third edition.

00:17:49: But everybody, they kept wanting more editions.

00:17:51: So we just keep saying yes and if you notice the forums The book has become like a platform for other theater professionals to be able To speak about their experience And how music and sound affect them.

00:18:07: For directors in playwrights In this one actors and educators.

00:18:12: We feel that I think the brunt of a book at this point, and that's okay.

00:18:19: It was never really meant to be technical And more the aesthetic discussion.

00:18:25: but there's opportunity for us to ask Tony Kushner To contribute and even two or so tricks

00:18:32: you are done.

00:18:33: yes exactly

00:18:34: it.

00:18:35: just Ellen Cummings its yeah, it's just amazing to kind of hear from some folks And it really is part of, you know we don't work in a vacuum.

00:18:49: We are working with directors and other designers... ...and stage managers.. ..and sound operators!

00:18:58: Yeah that's completely true.

00:19:01: yeah absolutely I think the sound sits at so many intersections within The Theatre and communicates with different departments and people forums.

00:19:12: because you get, I just wanted to mention that on educators also.

00:19:17: To what degree?

00:19:19: Also theater education or acting education can utilize and sort of become more sensible about sound music sensitive.

00:19:28: Sensible both probably!

00:19:30: And i think thats really great place it to do not...and i mean very lovingly to remain in nerd corner sort of, but to go out and communicate with all those players almost literally.

00:19:47: They have some strong feelings particularly the actors don't they?

00:19:51: What do you love about sound design in music?

00:19:55: yeah we only ask three questions because We were limited in pages this time, and it was like well And I don't want to burden them But I thought that they were relevant.

00:20:06: And the answers were concise.

00:20:09: Yeah what Alan Cummings wrote?

00:20:10: Was just breathtaking.

00:20:12: It made me cry.

00:20:13: and Jay Sanders.

00:20:14: I mean lovely lovely stuff.

00:20:15: Do you know?

00:20:16: Jim mentioned before That here was a director who said to my wish i knew What he were able To do.

00:20:21: I would have done

00:20:22: more.

00:20:23: You had posed A question David at one point about advice did you give.

00:20:29: that is no longer relevant?

00:20:30: When I first started, there was no accommodating a sound designer.

00:20:37: It's like oh!

00:20:38: You need to do this...I wanted quiet time so i could set levels And it wasn't like sitting in a theater now and having your laptop, being able to adjust as you go.

00:20:50: Anything that I did had to be changed...I would have gone back into the studio or do at home with my equipment but also fighting for contract.

00:21:02: Sound designers are such an integral part of productions right?

00:21:06: But not this way!

00:21:11: Now there's A-one, a two but we didn't have that.

00:21:14: And in fact the first assistant I had is David Lawson who was our contributing writer on this book and he started working with me... He and i worked together for ten years!

00:21:26: He was my apprentice and invaluable to the kind of work that were doing as sound design was progressing.

00:21:40: It's great to remind us and the listeners about not only how the profession has changed, developed with technology but also its role in theater.

00:21:53: Although I have to say some of things you mentioned... ...I'm part an email circle for German sound designers who recently began to communicate more become more of a... I'm not saying they're unionized, but they share information and questions as well.

00:22:16: And some other things you just mentioned are still very much present in these discussions Not getting an assistant Having difficult contracts negotiations having no quiet time Seven days of lighting then two hours to do your levels.

00:22:36: I'm afraid that's still happening.

00:22:38: Not everywhere, there are good developments and some very stellar examples of theatres who've invested in great sound departments... ...and have developed an understanding but not everywhere.

00:22:53: When i first met Jim out at Berkeley Rep There was a production meeting.

00:23:00: I never was in theaters, and I was all over New York.

00:23:03: But I hadn't worked at the public yet, but it's a production meeting where it sounds like, wow!

00:23:11: That is a wonderful thing that I had not experienced before.

00:23:15: In my case sometimes... Where am I?

00:23:20: Westport.

00:23:21: Everybody was presenting what they were doing for costumes And this is Paul Newman & Joanne Woodward Theatre showed.

00:23:30: I said this is my cassette tape and This Is My Music And i had scored it, but was like you know that You want to hear It?

00:23:38: I could try To play it.

00:23:40: they were Like oh That's what you're doing But it Was a very different.

00:23:45: for at Things the way They are now i believe

00:23:49: i Imagine i was going to ask sorry britton.

00:23:52: You wanted to say

00:23:53: well i'm just gonna Say that The Intangible Nature of sound Is is something like how do you?

00:24:01: Do a presentation or How do you talk about it?

00:24:05: and I think that especially over the course of also writing in the book.

00:24:08: It became Easier even just for myself to know how to Talk about it, and You know you asked a question which was relevant.

00:24:18: But is there like a technique Or design element that i lean on too much And do i try To steer away from now?

00:24:27: I learned that idea from my lighting design teacher.

00:24:31: He basically said, you know how always use this gel and sometimes they try not to use his color gel in the lights?

00:24:38: And just kind of push me for things very foreboding would rely on a low rumble or something going through a subwoofer.

00:24:50: so trying you know, was important to me and this carried on into my film work.

00:25:01: And so I've been a sound designer and mixer for well over two hundred documentaries an independent features but mostly documentaries .And i felt like bringing in My theater.

00:25:16: experience Was really valuable?

00:25:18: We would talk things To death till three o'clock In the morning.

00:25:23: Imagine you're doing something in kind of inner city Chicago.

00:25:28: Do you want to always rely on distant sirens or gunshots?

00:25:35: No, You don't!

00:25:40: because this isn't cheating, but we do add sounds to documentaries.

00:25:45: So what else is going to be something that says it's an economically disadvantaged area?

00:25:52: And maybe you're hearing trash pick up during the

00:25:54: day.

00:25:55: Yeah

00:25:56: Maybe your hearing in just elevated trains close by and other things are annoying That take a certain amount of attention away.

00:26:09: I was desperate to talk

00:26:11: about that.

00:26:12: That's great, wonderful!

00:26:16: Because we've talked a lot about the evolution of the job and aesthetics and technology.

00:26:22: but obviously also theatre has developed in those years since you practiced different directorial choices, aesthetics.

00:26:31: people direct differently than they did twenty or thirty-forty years ago.

00:26:36: Was there dialogue?

00:26:37: Did new forms of directing, but also maybe devising performances have changed your work as well.

00:26:47: So you talked Dina about the supportive role of music which there's a play and their characters... ...and there is story and psychology And it has a fictional world that your sound or music sit in.

00:27:00: But some pieces today are more abstract.

00:27:05: Maybe they're not not sort of fictional, maybe they are documentary theater.

00:27:11: How does that impact?

00:27:12: Well it really depends on the play and the production.

00:27:16: I did nine years as a resident sound designer for National Shakespeare so i've done the canon a lot!

00:27:22: And some of it was concept and most have been classical...and um..I'm going to go back a minute because you had asked is there certain style or something your known?

00:27:33: I started realizing, i do a lot of atmospheric sound and there's music as part of the atmosphere.

00:27:44: If that makes sense sometimes um...I use a lot elemental sounds but it doesn't work for every show.

00:27:52: if im doing an absurd play its not going to necessarily be or something very standard It certainly wouldn't.

00:28:00: But your question was as it changed.

00:28:04: I think the fact that now sound is supported and part of every production, And-and i'm not talking about reinforcement but on But It Is Part Of Musical Theater Now too which never used to be!

00:28:18: People are actually including sound design in musical theater.

00:28:22: One thing The other day...I was blown away..It Was Called Mexodus Jim.

00:28:27: have you heard About This Show?

00:28:28: Because It Was Out In California.

00:28:31: It's about the underground railroad not just going north in this country, but going south and there were two actor slash musicians Who are?

00:28:42: Unbelievable who played many different instruments.

00:28:46: And at the very beginning of the show they said Everything you hear that we're doing is created.

00:28:52: now nothing as recorded right.

00:28:54: all over them All over the stage There were different foot triggers that they could put, that sequenced something.

00:29:03: They would play on one of the instruments—they played so many instruments —that then they would sing with or play another instrument but it was... It was One Of The Most Remarkable Things I'd Ever Seen…I Was On The Edge Of My Seat Just Going.

00:29:17: How Are They Doing This?

00:29:18: and And The Voices!

00:29:21: What They Were Doing Vocally Was Just Extraordinary.

00:29:24: So.. I've Never Seen Anything Like That.

00:29:26: And then the week before, I saw something that was like an oral ballet.

00:29:33: It's a one-person show That came out of The Bristol Old Vic and it just won the Olivier, its called Kenricks.

00:29:41: This was one man basically populating An entire city Well town small town in Missouri.

00:29:50: He was he was the dog and he Was the mayor?

00:29:55: And it was constant sound.

00:29:57: There was a musician on stage who kind of helped with that, but seeing this kind of theater... What's happening in New York up Broadway now is very exciting.

00:30:07: I think some of the standard things do use sound design But i think that theatre has taken sound and not made it the

00:30:17: stepchild

00:30:18: that they don't want.

00:30:19: Projection design moved faster than sound design did, I have to say as an accepted discipline we took years to get to that point right?

00:30:28: Well

00:30:29: i think that audiences become educated over time as the adoption of more interesting or let's say more possibilities in sound design were taken by productions That I think that helps the audience not to kind of bump on it and say, what's that?

00:30:52: But let us forget theater was doing surround sound before there is electricity.

00:31:00: In ancient times for me... ...I loved The Berkeley Rep because you could really play speakers just about anywhere You wanted create these immersive atmospheres.

00:31:18: Jim, you had budgets!

00:31:20: I had no budgets when i started...I remember moving sound around a theater with home speakers and an eight-dollar speaker switcher from Radio Shack And was doing this years before the famous helicopter in Miss Saigon and fighting for budget.

00:31:36: oh my god.

00:31:37: But, you know where there's a will.

00:31:39: There is the way he can do it.

00:31:41: I also wanted to say and i should have said that they are sometimes when I see shows on go to a lot of theater.

00:31:47: why think oh my god this designer didn't read the play or they put something better than it's like all This Is Not Appropriate Or It's Intrusive Or Its not supporting The Production Or its too many bells And whistles That don't belong.

00:32:06: Just because you can doesn't mean.

00:32:09: You have to

00:32:10: mm-hmm, hmm

00:32:12: The history of Berkeley rep which started in nineteen sixty eight.

00:32:16: it was like in a In a converted produce store That was originally house had been lifted up A story to accommodate the store and so they really couldn't do much with sets or lights but they could do a lot with sound design and with costumes.

00:32:40: And so, they really leaned into it... ...and there was this wonderful history of resident sound designer at the Berkeley Rep when I came in there to work!

00:32:51: So It had already been kind-of respected But like any non-profit theater you know.

00:32:57: indeed budgets were not great.. ..but At least There are some semblance respect for what we are doing.

00:33:07: Yeah, that's interesting.

00:33:08: I mean it really goes back to which you were saying earlier Jim about the intangible nature and then sometimes have put your foot down be heard in some ways or to be recognized.

00:33:20: And also as he was saying The lack of a formal education...I don't know when people started actually teach lighting design For example but if look at equipment from those places.

00:33:31: And then, Dina you were saying about the DIY character of sort of scrambling together.

00:33:37: The ingenuity sometimes how can I create that sound without a million-dollar budget or with technology but just with simple means?

00:33:47: That's kind of.

00:33:48: it feels like part of the DNA of sound designers to be inventive in that way and to improvise.

00:33:55: Using live instruments or live effects kind of like Foley that are not recorded.

00:34:03: That was something I love to do a lot.

00:34:06: or live instrumentation with other sounds being part of it, they're not recorded.

00:34:12: We didn't even talk about that.

00:34:14: No, that's true.

00:34:16: Yeah absolutely.

00:34:17: And there is also an abstraction.

00:34:18: It isn't naturalistic.

00:34:21: You can have a clarinet make dog bark Or a door creak and so on.

00:34:30: The other Brecht would say alienation or defamiliarization, something like that where the sound actually supports but not in a direct way.

00:34:38: But sort of... In a way of reminding the audience this is theatre.

00:34:43: Or as you were saying about the actor-musicianship which also isn't a naturalistic way of performing.

00:34:49: As an actor You're both an actor and musician And can reinforce eachother.

00:34:56: I wanted to ask very briefly.

00:34:58: I want to talk about that at length, but you do mention very briefly.

00:35:03: your book sort of sits at the advent.

00:35:05: Of yet another technological revolution which is AI... ...which has become a very fast something that will impact on creative processes as well.

00:35:16: Do have opinions in use of AI?

00:35:21: In your profession we don't need to discuss AI in general and all over

00:35:26: the world.

00:35:27: You know, when we started this fifth edition gym you brought it up.

00:35:31: How much do we talk about here?

00:35:32: We said not much!

00:35:36: That's kind of right.

00:35:38: Well...it would have been a no-mission Not to address It and I think that our argument or are talking About is what other people i think Talk about saying that And you should not replace the human element in what you're doing and that.

00:35:58: You can be assisted by AI to do research or too, uh, certainly but I would never want To have an AI composed piece of music for a bajillion different reasons.

00:36:17: In production it's like any tool A hammer Can build the house Or it could destroy a painting.

00:36:25: I think that's probably, probably sums it up really well.

00:36:30: It can be a productive and very destructive force... ...and will need good judgement on the part of many people to make that distinction.

00:36:40: David earlier you asked do we miss Analogue at all?

00:36:44: There was an article for Wired Jim or American Theatre?

00:36:51: where we talked about, I think it was right around when writing the third edition.

00:36:56: Where were talking?

00:36:57: how you're editing real to reel let's say and maybe this is second edition?

00:37:05: And your cutting tape... The edit is done as you are thinking about it then listen to it.

00:37:12: It takes a little bit of time but gives you thought-time on what do next.

00:37:20: And we said, because now with digital it's so instantaneous.

00:37:26: You don't have that think time.

00:37:29: and I think... Now!

00:37:32: Because of this event so much its instantaneous.

00:37:35: It is just everything has done you want to do here it.

00:37:43: Am I thinking slower?

00:37:44: I don't know.

00:37:45: But, i still think considering what you've done and considering how You move forward with it is something that young designers should take into consideration.

00:37:56: Yeah We certainly found this in the film industry where when we were still at along if he got to the end of a reel during a mix and we wanted to go back the top.

00:38:07: It took few minutes to rewind all of elements, make sure everything was in sync again And it was like natural break into process.

00:38:17: certainly you do lose that little break there which is important.

00:38:24: I will say when comes noise reduction And the tools nowadays that I've got available to me and do use AI as part of their work, it's quite stunning.

00:38:40: What i'm able to do is remove hiss or other quote unquote imperfections because there are times where surface noise speaks.

00:38:57: recording as a document from history, but you know I'm grateful that i've got these tools available to really knock down noise or even reverb.

00:39:12: And anyway...I am still at the point where it just kind of stuns me.

00:39:19: Yeah!

00:39:19: It stuns and scares at the same time.

00:39:22: sometimes The important thing is the human element of someone to make that decision.

00:39:26: To say, here I do want a reduction or no... ...I don't want it because I wanted to sound historical and I want the imperfection to be there You know?

00:39:34: That can also be choice as well.

00:39:37: As long we still have that choice.

00:39:38: i think thats'a different story!

00:39:40: I did wanna touch on one thing which you've experienced in different ways but.. On the other hand its profession at least in Germany, where I live and work which is very much male dominated still.

00:39:56: There are women doing it but not as many.

00:39:59: And certainly also Jim you've been an advocate and activist for disability.

00:40:04: You yourself have a physical invisible disability.

00:40:08: So both cases your'e not typical sound designers.

00:40:14: because did that ever Impact on your work?

00:40:18: Was that important, did that set you apart from other people in the industry.

00:40:24: So I was born with spina bifida and never been able to walk but fortunately my parents Never moved out of this split level house And so i was crawling up and down stairs all the time.

00:40:39: That really served me great in theater Because i was able to crawl around different parts of the theatre To listen Which is really one of the more important parts.

00:40:50: Of The job.

00:40:51: and And fortunately I Because i had worked at a suburb theater, and got to know the brookly rep people Who were there that summer?

00:41:02: I was able To get this job.

00:41:04: in fact the business manager At the time said to paul who Is leaving uh the rep as their sound designer she Said but paul he can't walk.

00:41:14: and Paul said, but Mitzi he's the best sound designer I know.

00:41:20: And then what Paul told me later was you were the only sound designer i knew.

00:41:27: Jim when I saw you at Berkeley Rep You are literally flying around that theater.

00:41:32: it was extraordinary!

00:41:33: It was a lot of steps...and I-I was amazed..you're everywhere Flying!

00:41:40: There are moments in the documentary where we see sort climbing up into the sound booth and stuff.

00:41:44: And it looks very athletic to be, you know?

00:41:49: I wasn't doing that every day but nonetheless... I mean even in college i had a climb-up of small flight of stairs to get into the booth where all the equipment was!

00:42:03: That was though in the mid nineteen seventies And when Berkeley rep built their new theater in downtown Berkeley, and they're early nineteen eighties.

00:42:16: You know the theater was more accessible.

00:42:19: It is more

00:42:20: accessible.

00:42:20: so

00:42:21: Jim the Jim Lebrecht Memorial Elevator Jim separate body strength is extraordinary But that was very.

00:42:29: they gave that to him as a special gift.

00:42:36: Well, there was an elevator shaft in the building when I first built it but nobody raised them money for The Elevator and one of the board members said i'm gonna put up half the Money And the rest are you on the Board?

00:42:51: It could Put out the rest of the money right now And so the elevator itself wound Of getting In There four or five months later, and there was a lovely plaque inside just saying to my dear friend Jim LeBrett.

00:43:06: Wonderful

00:43:07: which?

00:43:07: um yeah.

00:43:09: so I think i'm gonna have a little vial of my ashes.

00:43:12: try to put in that elevator something when I pass away.

00:43:17: okay Dina what were your experiences?

00:43:20: did you face any?

00:43:22: oh

00:43:23: my god It seems like every profession that I've gone into, there are no women doing.

00:43:56: And this teamster said to me, you know Dina You need to get yourself a male assistant and I responded very rudely

00:44:04: Mm-hmm.

00:44:05: He said no No think about it.

00:44:07: if Joe Papp Thinks of you as the technician If he sees you setting up your own equipment and these sees you doing This he will not think of you.

00:44:14: is a designer right?

00:44:15: As it turned out shortly after that That's when i met David Lawson who was my assistant for ten years.

00:44:25: It did make a difference because I wasn't setting up my own equipment, but it was still always the fight.

00:44:31: Because i'm rather petite and blonde

00:44:35: And

00:44:36: um...I can be a force Jim knows!

00:44:41: But you have to pick your battles.

00:44:43: You can't impose yourself where people don't necessarily say this person This woman is capable of doing This because it was and I was very capable of doing a lot.

00:44:57: But yeah, if I kind of felt like I was crawling fighting swimming upstream Quite a bit.

00:45:05: It's ironic Because we always think of the theater as uh As more.

00:45:10: i don't know humanist and educated And open-spirited plays but it's not always the case and there is there's bias and there Is male chauvinism?

00:45:20: you know, people who disregard people with disabilities and all sorts.

00:45:26: And it's a long process.

00:45:27: It only really starting in Germany as well that... You know?

00:45:33: In terms of education try to get into an acting school if you have a disability or something like this.

00:45:41: So I mean we should be well past the point.

00:45:44: but i think its still an uphill struggle which is why I thought that your film, Jim was so impressive because it tells an old story in terms of when it was.

00:45:55: It's the seventies right?

00:45:57: And it tells all the repercussions until today and i thought So needed still.

00:46:05: Yeah,

00:46:05: unfortunately the you know The struggles to get some like it's a loop rules past that were anti-discrimination rules Called for a twenty six day takeover of a federal building.

00:46:18: yeah I do want to say that uh i was the co director on That film with nicole newton and And it was important.

00:46:28: that relationship Was remarkable in that?

00:46:32: We were collaborators.

00:46:33: She had.

00:46:34: I've been her sound designer for three just documentaries that she'd made beforehand, but I was the one with a real lived experience of disability and And knew some of the people that were really central to this story.

00:46:49: But and I think that is something never-to-be overlooked which Is how do we collaborate?

00:46:57: You know.

00:46:57: How are we stronger working with somebody in?

00:47:02: certainly there's Rodgers and Hammerstein, and other famous collaborators over time.

00:47:09: Of course they're not going to pay you twice as much for the sound if your co-working with somebody.

00:47:15: but I think these relationships especially is as Dina talked about David Lawson They can expand your knowledge of what's possible technically If you are really there all looking at that and studying that.

00:47:30: And like for our third edition, we brought in David Budgeris who was renowned as a teacher at Yale School of Drama and in theater especially around New Haven Connecticut.

00:47:44: that he really helped inform us from his statue has been one the best.

00:47:56: You also asked David earlier about when is sound taught or how that has changed.

00:48:04: When Jim and I wrote the first edition, Or we were starting to write it We had a prospectus That was sent to ten different publishers And given nine offers Which was unheard of Went with wrong one But thats okay.

00:48:20: We ended up with right.

00:48:22: after lots changes There were, I think only four schools that we're teaching sound at all.

00:48:29: I think there's over four hundred now...I mean everybody.

00:48:32: it is not they make in a major or offer as the major but it does exist and so many theater school have.

00:48:38: it has a class on an option And i think many of them are using our book.

00:48:44: It was translated into Serbo-Croatian.

00:48:51: There's now talk about.

00:48:53: I thought it was translated into Chinese, but It will be for this edition Jim.

00:48:58: Did you read that email?

00:48:59: So anyway That's

00:49:02: a huge market.

00:49:03: i'm not aware of a single course in Germany on sound design for theater.

00:49:06: there are some up for film But there's no the single way off.

00:49:11: You know you can study other things that are sort of adjacent.

00:49:15: You can study composition, of course.

00:49:16: You could study technology and so forth but specifically for that not a single course.

00:49:21: So you have to come here and set some up.

00:49:25: Well I think it's our hope also in curriculum around directing or stage management That people are offered out book To learn from Because i think we're maybe about the only resource.

00:49:41: Obviously i could be wrong out there.

00:49:44: that really kind of talks about the relationship and what's important to a stage manager, but how we work in vice versa.

00:49:53: Jim

00:49:54: I think told you this.

00:49:55: There was an instance where my son working somewhere And they were on break room with young man who said i want start doing something with sound for theater But don't know Where To Start.

00:50:10: My sons boss said well there's a book that you need to get, Sound and Music for the Theater by Kamla Brecht.

00:50:18: Now he did not... My son doesn't have my last name!

00:50:21: He didn't know this was my son.

00:50:24: so this guy says yeah then what?

00:50:26: And he goes no.. That is what we need in that book!

00:50:32: And Miles told me this I'm like hi interesting who has got

00:50:36: it?!

00:50:36: So i think relevant for so many different parts of theatre, and we included this time an assistant director because I just had done a show with this brilliant assistant director.

00:50:52: And I said would you write a blurb for us?

00:50:54: Because that's not in part of the theatre staff that we have acknowledged.

00:51:01: What goes on behind-the-scenes is what every designer represents as Everybody who's working in theatre should know what the other departments are all about, certainly.

00:51:16: Yeah absolutely.

00:51:19: and also I keep coming back to... I think this is from the first edition, The Preface From Peter Sellers.

00:51:25: Is that right?

00:51:26: Was That From the Very Beginning?

00:51:28: Yes!

00:51:29: It was supposed to be Joe Pap and then because he was going do it when He died so Peter Sellars came in.

00:51:35: yes

00:51:36: but what a wonderful...I keep you know.

00:51:38: i see that citation of some of the lines from opening which are for the time expressively pro sound design saying This No Longer About just something additional.

00:51:51: It's not, I think he calls it...it is no longer Garni or sort of a bit of something on the side but its the bread and butter of theatre and an art in its own right rather than an

00:52:03: add-on.".

00:52:04: And i think that's very well expressed and sets up the book really nicely.

00:52:08: yeah.

00:52:09: Also what Oscar Eustace wrote about for the fourth edition which we included In The Fifth it's love letter But also acknowledging how important this is as a part of any production.

00:52:23: Absolutely, wonderful!

00:52:24: Shall we end on some highlights from your career?

00:52:29: Do you have an anecdote somewhere where it feels like all came together and I'm particularly proud or too immodest...

00:52:39: You know somebody's stories are anecdotes in the book.

00:52:45: Sure, um you know and there are those moments where You know oh my god.

00:52:51: Do you know the mixing?

00:52:52: The one channel in the mixing console went out And I do a repatch and all of a sudden this dog bark sounds like there's a twenty foot schnauzer Backstage and the actors next line is well it's not a very big dog Johnny isn't.

00:53:09: Yeah, yeah don't forget movements like that.

00:53:14: I would say that to be honest, the thing that maybe you're most proud of is That i did a sound design for night at the iguana and For the moment The theater opened until the last patron left.

00:53:30: There was sound playing there was a rain forest sound playing And I usually got some kind Of mentioned in reviews In the bay area mentioned at all.

00:53:47: And this includes like a thunderstorm and bunch of other things I had done,

00:54:01: the saying about, The best film music is one you didn't notice or hear.

00:54:05: Did you mean it in that way?

00:54:06: That people just felt like they were natural and yeah...

00:54:10: Certainly!

00:54:11: Yeah, excellent It did what was supposed to do which supported the play.

00:54:16: Fantastic

00:54:17: For me.

00:54:17: I think i talk a lot of.

00:54:19: this book Is The Conference Of Birds.

00:54:22: I'm pretty sure its on there.

00:54:24: I created something where I had no idea capable of doing with the music and sound, David Lawson worked on that with me.

00:54:34: And that was where Jim I came up with the idea.

00:54:39: this director assumed you're genius.

00:54:42: so i have brought it into students that I work within actors I work with in singers and designers are working but I assume what is great in them because open to that they give back.

00:55:00: I created a language with music and sound, it was a remarkable experience.

00:55:07: You can read about in the book because... It's very expensive!

00:55:13: Excellent now that is wonderful.

00:55:15: those are two great examples.

00:55:18: so yeah i'm just quoting another line from this book.

00:55:21: then we've sold it.

00:55:22: I do get ten percent of your coming sales, off course.

00:55:29: Good!

00:55:31: Oh good David and you deserve that absolutely.

00:55:32: No no not at all.

00:55:33: That was the

00:55:33: number i was thinking about.

00:55:34: so yeah Ten Yeah

00:55:36: okay fine ah should have asked for fifteen.

00:55:39: Ofcourse

00:55:41: You put

00:55:41: a beautiful line in there which is we hope to keep it human And always keep listening and couldn't agree more because its not just talking about profession.

00:55:52: It's take on life to communicate with people, open your ears and be good collaborators.

00:55:58: And decent human beings which we need some more of I think.

00:56:03: all in all!

00:56:04: Great thank you both so much for joining me and sharing so many interesting insights stories and opinions about how your really important professions have evolved and changed... ...and are still significant.

00:56:22: more than ever i would say Thank you so much.

00:56:25: Thank You David.

00:56:26: well, thank you all right see love you do

00:56:30: now.

00:56:31: Thank you So much David.